Interview with Wah!  by Stephanie Gailing January 28, 2003

Stephanie: Can you clarify the difference between Kirtan and Bhajan?

Wah!: I will just speak from my experience and what I was taught. Kirtan (prounounce: KEER-tun) is a specific style of singing, similar to Dhrupad or Sangeet. Bhajans (prounounce: “BHUJ-uns”) are the folk songs of India. Bhaj just means to sing. So Kirtan is a specific style of classical singing and Bhajans are the folk songs of the people. The popular trend in America seems to be mantra chanting.

Really what we are doing is japa, repetition of mantra. What we chant are simple mantras. Nothing complicated. Neither kirtans nor bhajans are simple mantras. You have to know the language. The poets like Kabir and Rumi and Nam Dev…. they wrote poems, but there weren't newspapers. Or computers, or magazines. So everything was transmitted orally - either through recitation or through song. Many teachers sang, and the way they taught their disciples was through bhajans or through whatever style of singing or music they had. Music was a way they could impart teachings.

When I sing a song, I do it in English. Either way, it's called pop music. The pop music of ancient India was bhajan. People would say “Oh, wow did you hear that new poem by Kabir?" And another would say “Oh, yeah, yeah, I know that bhajan”. And then they would sing it. The teachings were all combined into a song. It wasn't just a poem. It is a totally amazing way to teach and to transmit technology, information.

You may get different answers from different people on what those terms (japa, bhajan, kirtan) mean. But this is what I know. What I do is japa. I say a mantra or a line of a mantra and the audience will repeat it back. That is how a lot of instruction was done in India and continues to be done today.

Stephanie: How important is it for people to know the linguistic meaning of what they are chanting? Or is it the intent that is important? Or is the Name they are chanting so powerful that it creates the effect all by itself?

Wah!: When I started chanting I mispronounced everything. There were no books, there were no chanting sheets, there were no websites. I was basically sitting in a dark room trying to lip-read the lips of the person next to me. You can imagine how atrocious my pronunciation was!

But my desire was very strong. And in time I did learn what all those words were and then chanted them correctly. So I still feel that anyone can start out that way. Even if you’re not pronouncing it right or if you don’t get a single word right, the intent or the calling out is the important thing. And as you call out, you reconnect with the Divine. And if you want to know more and you want to get the pronunciation right, that’s good too. That makes you that much more skillful. The intent to purify the mind and connect with the Universe in an infinite way is much more important.

Stephanie: What is the explanation from a technical perspective, of how chanting opens the heart, opens us up to spirit?

Wah!: Japa is a science all by itself. There are three domes in the body. The first dome, the lowest dome is the diaphragm. The second dome is the roof of the mouth, the upper palate. The third dome is the upper dome of the skull; we also call it the 10th gate. So when you are doing japa you are engaging all three domes. The diaphragm is in use because you are singing, and you are moving breath through your body. The upper palate is engaged because your tongue is hitting the roof of the palate in a rhythmic and very specific pattern. Like when you say Hare Ram your tongue is hitting the roof of your mouth in a rhythmic and specific pattern and that sends a signal to the brain. You are engaging the tenth gate or the top of the skull because you are meditating. You do that by focusing the eyes, the optical nerve … there are various meditative techniques that you can use.

When chanting is done in a repetitive way like this it induces euphoria. You are using all three domes in order to connect your self with the rest of the Universe. So, it is easy and it is technical but actually you don’t even know you are doing it. When you are chanting you are just chanting.

Chanting is kind of like the easy man’s way to meditate. Because it is fun, and you don’t have to sit quietly with a straight spine. You just start breathing, chanting and singing, and your tongue starts pitter-pattering on the top of your mouth and there you go...

There are also the vocal cords, the larynx. They are like two little rubber bands that are in your throat and as they vibrate they create a sound that then makes all of your bones and all of your muscle tissue and everything inside your body vibrate. And you just can’t get that anywhere. You kind of get it when you go into a club or if you lie on a speaker at a Jimi Hendrix concert… you know, your bones kind of vibrate in that way, but those are usually low end frequencies. When you sing, you vibrate frequencies which are at the same level as your being. Your vocal cords are attuned to you, they are your size. So there is a whole lot of healing that happens just on a vibrational level.

Stephanie: Do you know of any books or resources where I can do more research on this?

Wah!: I’ll have to go back and look. There are a lot of people who written books on sound therapy and how that works and what all the tones do. There are American sound therapists that have done that. There is also a whole study through Indian literature on how the ragas work and the origin of the scale - the Indian Do, Re, Mi… is Sa, Re, Ga, Ma… They have documented how all of these sounds exist in nature. Ni is the sound of an elephant. I don’t know which key it was in, maybe a man’s key like C or B flat. If you go into nature and record an elephant trumpeting, and come back and find the note, it will be Ni. They claim that all of the notes of the scale are found in nature and that they all heal in a very specific way. The Tibetan bowls that the acupuncturists use that they put on your back… There are so many ways to heal with sound. I’ll go back to see if I can get specific references for you. But just to know that sound heals, is a good place to start.

Stephanie: Have you seen a change over the years of people’s acceptance and opening to chanting?

Wah!: We tour to NYC a lot and New Yorkers are very interested in things that work. And because chanting works they are very into it. For new Yorkers, I have really found that if it works, they do it. If you are good, they take notice. That kind of thing. They are very hard core. It was true before 9-11, and is especially true now. Yoga has blossomed more in cities than in the urban areas. But as yoga centers all over the country open and continue to thrive, chanting becomes more acceptable. They hear it in class. They hear it at the yoga center. It is usually not associated with any other organizations except just being yoga.

When I started doing yoga the only place you could find yoga or chanting was in an ashram. So in the 60s and 70s there were only ashrams. Some of them still exist. Sivananda has some ashrams going, Kripulu has an ashram, Swami Satchinanda’s group (Integral Yoga), they have Yogaville. There are some core ashrams still around but that is not the way people usually connect now. They connect through yoga centers, because it is kind of nondenominational. People hear the music during yoga class and they like the vibe. So they become more open to the whole idea. But the Bible Belt is still fairly resistant. We went to Little Rock, Arkansas. This man came up to me and said “I’d like to say that your voice is very sweet.” “Thank you very much, sir”, I said. “Can you just tell me one thing….what is the name of your Lord?” He wanted to know who could be Lord besides Jesus. I replied, “It is actually the same as yours. God is the same in all Realized Beings.” That’s how we look at it but they don’t always look at it that way. It's okay... They still come!

Stephanie: It must be so incredible to be in the presence of so many people who are growing and opening. It is just beautiful – everything you give to people and what people give back to you.

Wah!: Isn’t it wonderful how so many people are open to this! I would say historically, this is a very special time. There is an amazing amount of people all opening to yoga, chanting, inner work, 12-step programs, detox… all these are available. There is an amazing amount of people that are trying to improve themselves and trying to better their consciousness. It started at Woodstock but it wasn’t grounded. And it wasn’t integrated into people’s lives in the same way that it is now. What is going on now is very, very powerful.

There are a lot of different groups that are all coming together. In the 60s, all of those ashrams that I talked about before… We were all separate and we didn’t intermingle that much. If I was in one tradition I didn’t go hang out with the Hare Krishna’s. And now when there is a yoga conference, there is a whole global community present. Where it goes from here is our choice. Do you we swing back into the conservatism of the 80s or do we go to a space where we can really change the planet. I only mention this because it is really possible. It is really possible...

Stephanie: Is the style of chanting different in different cultures? Is it different in India than in the United States?

Wah!: All the different styles that are coming up, especially in America... well, I don’t think it really matters. You’ve got Dave Stringer who is like the Dave Matthews of chanting. You have Krishna Das who is like the Bruce Springsteen of chanting. I am probably like the Joni Mitchell of chanting. You know there are all these different styles but as long as the japa is happening, then it doesn’t really matter. If the chants are remixes for the clubs and people just listen, on ecstacy and dance... then it probably won't work. Because the connection is in the singing. If people are not creating the japa, we have lost the connection.

As long as people are chanting and meditating, it just doesn’t really matter what the musical style is. With as many personalities as there are, there are that many styles of chanting. The Name is the medicine. The music is the spirit. Take your brand.

Stephanie: Is there a traditional style of chanting in India?

Wah!: India is the master of change. It started out as Sangeet and then turned into Quwwali. There are so many different styles! Every temple has a different style! There might be very nicely orchestrated music inside the temple and out on the street and it’ll be like (she sings). These tiny little drums are pumping out an amazing volume. It’s completely raucous and you are like “hey, what’s up?” So India has it all too. So many styles. And they have western influences now too – Bhangra mixed with hip hop, or Classical Indian styles orchestrated for film. There are traditions but like I said it is the practice.

Stephanie: Could you describe for me what we can expect at tonight’s concert?

Wah!: I start with invocation. I do a couple of mantras to the Divine Mother because that is my source. Then we sing four or five chants, each to a different deity. Starting with Ram, and then going to Krishna, and then we might stay on Krishna and do Radhe Krishna and then Gopala. We chant to Divine Mother - either as the goddess (Devi) or as the female counterpart of Shiva (Kali or Durga). We chant to Shiva.

In the middle of the evening I usually do a couple of songs in English to give people a resting space to meditate. Also, to offer something in their original language. Kind of what we were talking about in our beginning conversation - putting the teachings into a song and allowing it just go out over the sound waves… just like that. And then we do a couple of more chants and end with Lokaha Samasthaha Sukhino Bhavantu. We create some really cool energy and then we send it out to heal ourselves and the world. Then we meditate for two or three minutes in silence.

Stephanie: I really look forward to it.

Wah!: I look forward to it too.